Out On The Edge

[exNCite]

I've always said that MLB needs a cap. Teams that are in unequal markets will always be at a disadvantage in revenue. Instead, baseball needs a system that allows all teams to compete in those economic structures. So what if the owners of the big market teams make billions in profits. Rather than *****ing about the money they make, I say good for them. That's what free enterprise is supposed to be about.

And by the way, where does it say that you only root for the Pirates when they are winning. I guess the Chicago Cubs should be disbanded then too. If the Bucs have a better chance of competing in Mexico City and that's the only option, then so be it. I for one wont blame it on Nutting, but will blame it on the MLB.

[Pirate Fan in KW]

I've always said that MLB needs a cap. Teams that are in unequal markets will always be at a disadvantage in revenue. Instead, baseball needs a system that allows all teams to compete in those economic structures. So what if the owners of the big market teams make billions in profits. Rather than *****ing about the money they make, I say good for them. That's what free enterprise is supposed to be about.

And by the way, where does it say that you only root for the Pirates when they are winning. I guess the Chicago Cubs should be disbanded then too. If the Bucs have a better chance of competing in Mexico City and that's the only option, then so be it. I for one wont blame it on Nutting, but will blame it on the MLB.

Agreed! I couldn't have said it better.

[bdeff]

Very good Read....as a Phillies fan, it pains me to see what has become of the Pirates and baseball in general.

Here's hoping the Pirates can break through or baseball gets its head out of its ***...

[exNCite]

Very good Read....as a Phillies fan, it pains me to see what has become of the Pirates and baseball in general.

Here's hoping the Pirates can break through or baseball gets its head out of its ***...

Not sure they make a big enough can opener.

[emjayinTN]

The Pirates have NEVER drawn 2.6 million fans let alone 3 million. The highest was 2.4 mil when PNC opened. One problem you forget is the competition they face. Pens most likely go deep into the playoffs which potentially lasts into June. Then you have the Steelers starting up in August/September. There is only so mush of a fan base you can draw on in the PGH market which makes it tough to get to the numbers you are suggesting.

I am saying that if we cannot draw 2.6 mil or more, we cannot compete. That's an average of 32,000 per home game - we drew an average of 24,000+ last year. You are implying that the Pirates cannot draw 2.6 mil? Yes, Pittsburgh has the Steelers and Penguins who are very good, have excellent talent, and are a threat to go all the way in their leagues every year. But, watching the walk-up traffic last year when this team competed with the best in the NL Central tells me that people in Pittsburgh are starved for a winner, and PNC Park is the best place in baseball to watch a game. I think if the Pirates put a contender on the field the fans will come back in the numbers necessary to provide the needed revenue to get and retain better players. The folks through the turnstiles is necessary to prove the interest of the tri-state area in the Pirates, which in turn, drives the price of the TV Contract upward adding more revenue. TV is based on sales, and the more interest, the more people reached with each broadcast, and the more you can charge for advertising.

Aside to Carney 2: If the team has to leave Pittsburgh, don't send it to Mexico City, send them to Nashville, TN. Therefore, instead of having to drive 8 hours to watch the Bucs, I can cruise about 2.5 hours West and be in Nashville. The Pirates used to have their AAA team there, and there are plenty of Pirate and Steeler fans in the Nashville area!

[vandelay industries]

I'm not talking about the edge of the cliff or on a ledge 20 stories up. If that were the case it would be in past tense. As a Pirates fan I would have jumped years and years ago. I'm talking about the edge. You know, as in the edge of hope, the edge of credulity, the edge of reason, or even the edge, as in about to jump ship. This off season may have done it for me.

After a year in which my Buccos were in contention at and after the All-Star break and some seemingly meaningful baseball was played on the North Side, we get...what? A Clint Barmes, a Nate McLouth, an MRI waiting to happen in Erik Bedard, a...well, you get my point. Looking at the big picture here we see that the best management team in baseball is quite content to go into 2012 with more or less the same level of performance that we saw in August and September of 2011. They are counting on maturity and skills improvement, I guess. The talent count hasn't been changed much at all.

Buried in all of this are the statements that baseball is a business and Bob Nutting is a businessman. Both are true. What seems to left out of the equation is the fact that ownership of a major league professional sports franchise carries with it another implication - it's something of a public trust. The community has a stake in this that goes well beyond being a mere ticket buying customer. Ownership has an obligation to give an honest effort. That, in my opinion, did not happen in this off season. Should management have thrown $214 million at a Prince Fielder? God no. Should they have flopped around like a beached fish a la the Florida Marlins, throwing money, or threatening to throw money, here, there and everywhere in the hopes that something might happen? No again. Should they have shown good faith and made an honest effort to upgrade this rag tag bunch of perpetual losers? Absolutely. Did they? Absolutely not.

I've heard all the arguments. Things like the future is not now. The Pirates have spent money on the draft and in the international market. Talent is on the way. To some extent I agree. That "talent," in my opinion, is a bit too heavily invested in high risk pitching, but it's there. Then there's the "we'll spend when the time is right" argument. This is where I move to the edge. This off season may have convinced me that current management is somehow incapable of making moves and will not step to the plate, even when the time is right. It's not that they don't care, it's as if they're glass half empty type guys who will always be capable of finding a reason to say no.

Get off the god****ed edge and get your mind right.

1. As I've always said, FA is a 2-way street.

2. It appears that Nutting is willing/trying to spend.

2 tweets from Ken Rosenthal:

Sources: Pirates made 3-yr offer to Edwin Jackson. Also made him 1-yr offer in $10MM range.

Do not know exact amount of #Pirates' 3-year offer to E. Jackson, but told it was substantial, in range of $10M a year.

[Kipper]

I am saying that if we cannot draw 2.6 mil or more, we cannot compete. That's an average of 32,000 per home game - we drew an average of 24,000+ last year. You are implying that the Pirates cannot draw 2.6 mil? Yes, Pittsburgh has the Steelers and Penguins who are very good, have excellent talent, and are a threat to go all the way in their leagues every year. But, watching the walk-up traffic last year when this team competed with the best in the NL Central tells me that people in Pittsburgh are starved for a winner, and PNC Park is the best place in baseball to watch a game. I think if the Pirates put a contender on the field the fans will come back in the numbers necessary to provide the needed revenue to get and retain better players. The folks through the turnstiles is necessary to prove the interest of the tri-state area in the Pirates, which in turn, drives the price of the TV Contract upward adding more revenue. TV is based on sales, and the more interest, the more people reached with each broadcast, and the more you can charge for advertising.

Aside to Carney 2: If the team has to leave Pittsburgh, don't send it to Mexico City, send them to Nashville, TN. Therefore, instead of having to drive 8 hours to watch the Bucs, I can cruise about 2.5 hours West and be in Nashville. The Pirates used to have their AAA team there, and there are plenty of Pirate and Steeler fans in the Nashville area!

Why does this fairytale exist in people's minds that if the Pirates put a winning product on the field that attendance numbers will suddenly go through the roof beyond heights this city has ever seen? The only, only justification I have ever seen from people to back up this pipe dream is that "PNc Park is great". At one time, Three Rivers Stadium was considered a great stadium and it opened 1 season prior to the Pirates going to and winning the World series and the Pirates NEVER came close to the expected attendance numbers some people dream up. That was before the Steelers were making the playoffs and were that generations Pittsburgh Pirates and nobody gave 2 ****s about hockey. Back when Baseball was by far the most popular sport out there. A decade later the Pirates went to and won another World Series and again average attendance was 17.7K. The last time the Pirates were in the playoffs, not only were they ridiculed nationally for not being able to sell out a stadium that the Steelers could sell out once a week for games against ****ty teams WHEN the Steelers had a ****ty team (1990, 1991) but they still only managed to draw just barely over 2 million per season or 24/25K per game.

The Pirates aren't going anywhere. There's no small market teams going anywhere. They aren't in debt or struggling financially to survive in Baseball. The Pirates just don't have the revenue streams to compete with mid and large market teams as long as MLB exists in it's unequal economic form which is good for another 5-6 years under this new CBA

[Kipper]

Kipper: I am using the figures put forth by Forbes a few years ago regarding the worth of teams and how much each fan through the turnstiles is worth to that particular team. At the time, it was $30 per fan - I am figuring those numbers increased naturally from inflation and will rise at an increased rate with price increases in the tickets. Therefore, I figured last year's increase in attendance was worth close to $10 mil and then figuring for increased ticket prices, if the Pirates increase by 300,000 per year, a conservative estimate will be $30 mil over a 3 year period - I figure $31.5 mil over 3 years would be closer. I think the 300,000 increase in the next two years is possible, getting us to 2.3 mil fans in 2012 and 2.6 mil fans in 2013. Those are realistic if the Pirates start to sign some existing players (building a solid foundation), and add a key player or two. Also, within the next two years we should add a 5 Tool OF in Starling Marte, and the possibility of increased quality of SP's.

I think the Pirates can get to 2.6 mil fans, but taking them to 3 mil will be up to the success of the team, and, unfortunately, the weather. The average number of fans in April and early May has always been low, and a team like the Brewers does not ever need to worry about the weather because of the roof. I heard some comments about that on MLB TV. The comments were the Brewers draw from such a large area, that fans have to plan well ahead to attend - with the roof they never have to gamble that a game or a few games will be postponed.

Forbes' numbers have always been quite sketchy... so ignore those and use what is available to you ...

https://www.teammarketing.com/public...11_mlb_fci.pdf
http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

you need to do some advance research to find out what the TV and cable contracts are but for the most part the Pirates sit in the lower to middle half with that too. This market isn't going to pay the same price as a mid and larger tiered market.

you have to look at like teams as well to an extent. The Reds could be in deep **** if they don't start getting an increase in attendance, they've already implied this. t's been reported that they're spending more than they are bringing in and if they failed to generate the revenue/increase attendance like they are relying on then they're going to have to shed payroll just put them back into the black. The best the Reds have ever done attendance wise was 2.6 million and they're only getting 2-2.3 million with a good team that made the playoffs in 2010. Cincinnati is a proven better baseball market than Pittsburgh. If they can't do it, don't expect Pittsburgh to

[emjayinTN]

Why does this fairytale exist in people's minds that if the Pirates put a winning product on the field that attendance numbers will suddenly go through the roof beyond heights this city has ever seen? The only, only justification I have ever seen from people to back up this pipe dream is that "PNc Park is great". At one time, Three Rivers Stadium was considered a great stadium and it opened 1 season prior to the Pirates going to and winning the World series and the Pirates NEVER came close to the expected attendance numbers some people dream up. That was before the Steelers were making the playoffs and were that generations Pittsburgh Pirates and nobody gave 2 ****s about hockey. Back when Baseball was by far the most popular sport out there. A decade later the Pirates went to and won another World Series and again average attendance was 17.7K. The last time the Pirates were in the playoffs, not only were they ridiculed nationally for not being able to sell out a stadium that the Steelers could sell out once a week for games against ****ty teams WHEN the Steelers had a ****ty team (1990, 1991) but they still only managed to draw just barely over 2 million per season or 24/25K per game.

The Pirates aren't going anywhere. There's no small market teams going anywhere. They aren't in debt or struggling financially to survive in Baseball. The Pirates just don't have the revenue streams to compete with mid and large market teams as long as MLB exists in it's unequal economic form which is good for another 5-6 years under this new CBA

If I am reading you correctly you are telling me that the city of Pittsburgh will not support this team and never has supported the Pirates even when they were winning. My point was that the Pirates have to increase Revenue if they intend to compete for the playoffs. There are only so many ways to increase revenue, and increasing attendance is a basic. It will have an effect on the worth of the team and the worth of the TV contract. Pittsburgh's TV market is small compared to many of the other MLB Teams, but it will increase as attendance increases. But, if it is as you state, why keep supporting this effort to achieve nothing but mediocrity? Revenue Sharing has kept the Pirates in the mix the past few years, but the intent of MLB is to decrease the amounts of Revenue Sharing throughout the course of this contract. Then what?

I hear what you are saying and lived it - when you could walk up and walk into a Steeler game any Sunday, and when the city proved on a few occasions that they could not support Pro Hockey or Pro Basketball. But, the Steelers turned it around, and the Penguins turned it around, and you say that the Pirates are unable to do the same? I disagree. Those success stories were driven by having the right people in the front office, and the drafting and spending money on personalities that seemed to be the embodiment of the steel city. I left in the 80's as a victim of the steel industry that died, and I would not have believed that the city would be able to come out of it after losing such a key part of the local economy. But, Pittsburgh is a beautiful city to visit, and I think the wherewithal is there to re-build the Pirates the same as the Steelers and Pens. The difference is talent - when the Steelers quit buying over-the-hill slobs with beer guts, and actually drafted top talent, the fans responded. Same when the Pens got lucky and drafted every possible talented young kid to build a winner. It could happen with the Pirates, but it will take a partnership of the front office and the fans. Pittsburgh has come through a lot and their recent history is that they will support winners.

But, if the owner will not spend, and/or the fans will not support, then please, send them elsewhere. They have what it takes to succeed in place right now - enough talent in the right places to last 10-15 years, but they have to hang onto their best players and add a few here and there. The Pirates of 2011 were not that good and they won 70 games. The experts at MLB are talking that 88 wins will be good enough for the playoffs in 2012 - that's not that far of a journey.

[airleg1]

If I am reading you correctly you are telling me that the city of Pittsburgh will not support this team and never has supported the Pirates even when they were winning. My point was that the Pirates have to increase Revenue if they intend to compete for the playoffs. There are only so many ways to increase revenue, and increasing attendance is a basic. It will have an effect on the worth of the team and the worth of the TV contract. Pittsburgh's TV market is small compared to many of the other MLB Teams, but it will increase as attendance increases. But, if it is as you state, why keep supporting this effort to achieve nothing but mediocrity? Revenue Sharing has kept the Pirates in the mix the past few years, but the intent of MLB is to decrease the amounts of Revenue Sharing throughout the course of this contract. Then what?

I hear what you are saying and lived it - when you could walk up and walk into a Steeler game any Sunday, and when the city proved on a few occasions that they could not support Pro Hockey or Pro Basketball. But, the Steelers turned it around, and the Penguins turned it around, and you say that the Pirates are unable to do the same? I disagree. Those success stories were driven by having the right people in the front office, and the drafting and spending money on personalities that seemed to be the embodiment of the steel city. I left in the 80's as a victim of the steel industry that died, and I would not have believed that the city would be able to come out of it after losing such a key part of the local economy. But, Pittsburgh is a beautiful city to visit, and I think the wherewithal is there to re-build the Pirates the same as the Steelers and Pens. The difference is talent - when the Steelers quit buying over-the-hill slobs with beer guts, and actually drafted top talent, the fans responded. Same when the Pens got lucky and drafted every possible talented young kid to build a winner. It could happen with the Pirates, but it will take a partnership of the front office and the fans. Pittsburgh has come through a lot and their recent history is that they will support winners.

But, if the owner will not spend, and/or the fans will not support, then please, send them elsewhere. They have what it takes to succeed in place right now - enough talent in the right places to last 10-15 years, but they have to hang onto their best players and add a few here and there. The Pirates of 2011 were not that good and they won 70 games. The experts at MLB are talking that 88 wins will be good enough for the playoffs in 2012 - that's not that far of a journey.

Im reading you EmJay your comments take me back to the orriginal intent of this thread. The others have valid points with being too small to compete as well, so the options are to:

A. Spend the money that is or isnt there (nobody has proven that the Pirates ownership cant afford it) on the last remaining pieces to field a competitive team for a couple of years (not perenial great) to grow the fanbase/tv market.

B. Field bad Teams until the complete Dream Team can be drafted.

C. Field bad teams until the day that a salary cap is enacted

D. Give up and send the Team to Tokyo or Mexico City

As a fan I go With A.

As a Business man (which Im not) I go with A even if it maxes me out financially. It will either work or the Team will be worth more money than I have invested in it as a win win and sell it to someone that can complete what I started for a profit.

[buccoman]

Why does this fairytale exist in people's minds that if the Pirates put a winning product on the field that attendance numbers will suddenly go through the roof beyond heights this city has ever seen? The only, only justification I have ever seen from people to back up this pipe dream is that "PNc Park is great". At one time, Three Rivers Stadium was considered a great stadium and it opened 1 season prior to the Pirates going to and winning the World series and the Pirates NEVER came close to the expected attendance numbers some people dream up. That was before the Steelers were making the playoffs and were that generations Pittsburgh Pirates and nobody gave 2 ****s about hockey. Back when Baseball was by far the most popular sport out there. A decade later the Pirates went to and won another World Series and again average attendance was 17.7K. The last time the Pirates were in the playoffs, not only were they ridiculed nationally for not being able to sell out a stadium that the Steelers could sell out once a week for games against ****ty teams WHEN the Steelers had a ****ty team (1990, 1991) but they still only managed to draw just barely over 2 million per season or 24/25K per game.

The Pirates aren't going anywhere. There's no small market teams going anywhere. They aren't in debt or struggling financially to survive in Baseball. The Pirates just don't have the revenue streams to compete with mid and large market teams as long as MLB exists in it's unequal economic form which is good for another 5-6 years under this new CBA

One reason there is optimism about attendance is last year: higher attendance in 2011 than the 1992 championship team (and frankly almost as much as the other two in 90 and 91) and weekend sell outs from mid June forward. You lack imagination, Kipper, to understand why the old days are no longer relevant. It's perfectly reasonable to imagine the Pirates rse from the dead as an amazingly compelling, fan grabbing phenomenom, simiilar to the Steelers and Pens. Football was so bad for so long that the Steelers were blacked out for ALL of their home games until 1972. Pre-Mario hockey days the only sellouts were when the Flyers came to town. Why wouldn't the Pirates expect the same revival?

[buccoman]

Get off the god****ed edge and get your mind right.

1. As I've always said, FA is a 2-way street.

2. It appears that Nutting is willing/trying to spend.

2 tweets from Ken Rosenthal:

It's really all you can ask from the FO, that they are trying to upgrade, and willing to risk a little. It's just going to be tough because no agent is going to recommend his player cometo Pittsburgh, not until there's potential for said player's career to benefit from playing for the Pirates. That's the stark reality.

[vandelay industries]

It's really all you can ask from the FO, that they are trying to upgrade, and willing to risk a little. It's just going to be tough because no agent is going to recommend his player cometo Pittsburgh, not until there's potential for said player's career to benefit from playing for the Pirates. That's the stark reality.

Agreed.

That's why building a team from within, that competes for a playoff spot, is critical. Only then, as you said, will a FA want to come here and be part of something other than a comeback chance or a last paycheck like they mostly are now.

I think it also goes a long way to prove a point I've, and others, made before that to get a FA to want to come here the Pirates would have to pay well above market value. That's just not smart. Then they could get saddled with crud contracts that are unmovable if/when the time comes.

[emjayinTN]

That's why building a team from within, that competes for a playoff spot, is critical. Only then, as you said, will a FA want to come here and be part of something other than a comeback chance or a last paycheck like they mostly are now.

I think it also goes a long way to prove a point I've, and others, made before that to get a FA to want to come here the Pirates would have to pay well above market value. That's just not smart. Then they could get saddled with crud contracts that are unmovable if/when the time comes.

Agree 100% - I think that others around the league are watching what the Pirates do with Andrew McCutchen. That is what is called building from within. He is our best and if we sign him, even for a little more than market value, the rest of the league can bank that the Pirates are willing to spend to build a winner. Right now, people do not even call the Pirates, because they have shown no interest. Maybe the offer to EJAX will start to change the impression of the Pirates, but signing your best player is what really will seal the deal. And, it sends such a positive message to the other 10 to 20 top prospects in your system that they are in the right place at the right time with the right team.

[Kipper]

If I am reading you correctly you are telling me that the city of Pittsburgh will not support this team and never has supported the Pirates even when they were winning. My point was that the Pirates have to increase Revenue if they intend to compete for the playoffs. There are only so many ways to increase revenue, and increasing attendance is a basic. It will have an effect on the worth of the team and the worth of the TV contract. Pittsburgh's TV market is small compared to many of the other MLB Teams, but it will increase as attendance increases. But, if it is as you state, why keep supporting this effort to achieve nothing but mediocrity? Revenue Sharing has kept the Pirates in the mix the past few years, but the intent of MLB is to decrease the amounts of Revenue Sharing throughout the course of this contract. Then what?

I hear what you are saying and lived it - when you could walk up and walk into a Steeler game any Sunday, and when the city proved on a few occasions that they could not support Pro Hockey or Pro Basketball. But, the Steelers turned it around, and the Penguins turned it around, and you say that the Pirates are unable to do the same? I disagree. Those success stories were driven by having the right people in the front office, and the drafting and spending money on personalities that seemed to be the embodiment of the steel city. I left in the 80's as a victim of the steel industry that died, and I would not have believed that the city would be able to come out of it after losing such a key part of the local economy. But, Pittsburgh is a beautiful city to visit, and I think the wherewithal is there to re-build the Pirates the same as the Steelers and Pens. The difference is talent - when the Steelers quit buying over-the-hill slobs with beer guts, and actually drafted top talent, the fans responded. Same when the Pens got lucky and drafted every possible talented young kid to build a winner. It could happen with the Pirates, but it will take a partnership of the front office and the fans. Pittsburgh has come through a lot and their recent history is that they will support winners.

But, if the owner will not spend, and/or the fans will not support, then please, send them elsewhere. They have what it takes to succeed in place right now - enough talent in the right places to last 10-15 years, but they have to hang onto their best players and add a few here and there. The Pirates of 2011 were not that good and they won 70 games. The experts at MLB are talking that 88 wins will be good enough for the playoffs in 2012 - that's not that far of a journey.

You don't have to read it from me. I'm just stating what the facts show. Look for yourself :

http://www.baseball-reference.com/te...T/attend.shtml

now look at a city in a similar market, I'd say smaller like Cincinnati ..

http://www.baseball-reference.com/te...N/attend.shtml

When the Reds were/are good they outdraw the Pirates when the Pirates are good.

The Steelers and Penguins both managed to draw sell outs during the same/similar periods when the Pirates couldn't. The Steelers were selling out Three Rivers stadium in the end of the 1980's when those teams weren't very good, the Pens at the start of the 1990's when the Pirates were also good were able to sell out Civic Arena and Pittsburgh were embarassing themselves on National Television not selling out Three Rivers Stadium for the Playoffs.

The Steelers and Pens proved a long time ago that they could fill their venues. For the Pens it's not really difficult either, the Pirates draw per game about what the Pens draw. It's expecting a lot more than that on average from a region that's been shrinking in population and never really flocked to the ball park to watch the Pirates, coming in larger masses. There's no proof that this will happen outside of one's personal belief and dreams. I have dreams to but then I have to wake up and deal with reality. The reality is that the Pirates have never drawn in attendance what people think they can as far as obtaining a certain level of payroll/revenue.

Why keep supporting the team? Because we're all fans. It's not our fault as fans that we are getting royally screwed up the rear by Bud Selig and MLB. That's the real issue and the real problem. Baseball is simply not run as a fair sport, not like hockey and Football. If you want to be a fan you have to acknowledge that and take the unfortunate lumps that accommodate it. The lumps are that the Pirates have to do a lot more in order to win than the New York Yankees. The Pirates will never compete financially with 2/3 of the league. It sucks. It sucks as a fan, but that is how Baseball is run. The Pirates can still have and find success. Look at Tampa Bay, Florida. Even if it is quick. even if it is a constant rebuild and player dump, obtain prospects rebuild quickly, that's the reality we as fans have to live within until Baseball implements either a salary cap or they force more local revenue to be shared

I completely agree with you that the model for success is drafting and building your own team from within. It's the only way teams like the Pirates will every succeed, but expecting the same annual continued success for the Pirates if they ever reach that stage is unrealistic in MLB's economic climate. the sport isn't built for teams like the Pirates to replicate what they did in the 1970's being a consistent yearly competitor for the playoffs. It'll be a few years of good, a few years of rebuilding... rinse and repeat. I'm fine with that if that is the best we can get out of MLB.