Smizik hits an all time low...

[irahuss]

I have come to agree with you, Kip, about the need to go young while this team develops, so I am ok with the lesser developed players in the OF. However, you really **** me off when you keep referring to Jason Bay as "a player on the decline." And he is not AWFUL defensively--average maybe, but not awful. You lose credibility when you characterize players of Bay's calibre this way. What may be true is that it makes no sense to waste $$ on Bay at a time when the Pirates are not ready to compete, and that Bay could well be in decline by the time they ARE ready to compete.

At the risk of entering a ****ing match... you lose credibility when you call Bay "average" defensively which he clearly was not... At 26 he was pretty good roaming the cavernous PNC left field, he was an upgrade over manny in the smallest left field in baseball while in boston, but I don't think he'd hold up in our LF today.

And why does it **** you off to hear "a player on the decline"? First of all, no need to get ****ed about any of this stuff. Second, It's a pretty safe assumption that last year was his career year and his numbers will be going down... plus the likelihood of injuries makes that potential decline even more drastic.

[jnn123]

I don't know that you can call 2009 a career year for Bay. Without actually looking up the numbers I'd say that despite the HR total being his highest in 2009, Bay was a significantly better player in 2005 and 2006, both in the field and at the plate. I think in 2005 he was better than .300/.400/.550 which he hasn't approached since, and had 20+ stolen bases with only 1 CS. His production in 2009 was good, but nothing compared to that year.

I also think that the decline to be expected from Bay is a bit overstated. I don't expect him to have too many issues in 2010 or even 2011. 2012 and beyond becomes a bit more of a question mark, which I why I can support not locking him up to the deal he would have commanded.

[indybucfan]

I do have that option. Bay in LF, McCutchen in CF, McLouth in RF.

Actually, you don't, McLouth wasn't moving out of centerfield for a rookie. Now technically it's not his decision, a player's wishes carries a lot of clout. So, like I said before, you don't have that option. Besides, if that was the alignment, Bay would be in right, which he would have strongly opposed.

But then again, it wouldn't matter, because regardless, Bay wouldn't be here. He'd become a free agent and leave for greener pastures.

[Kipper]

I have come to agree with you, Kip, about the need to go young while this team develops, so I am ok with the lesser developed players in the OF. However, you really **** me off when you keep referring to Jason Bay as "a player on the decline." And he is not AWFUL defensively--average maybe, but not awful. You lose credibility when you characterize players of Bay's calibre this way. What may be true is that it makes no sense to waste $$ on Bay at a time when the Pirates are not ready to compete, and that Bay could well be in decline by the time they ARE ready to compete.

The only people that will say that Bay is "average" defensively are his biggest fans and people that don't know what they are talking about. I'll take it that you are a fan of Bay because even the SLIGHTEST bit of statistical research will show you that Jason Bay is below average defensively. At his BEST from 04-06 Bay may have been Average at best defensively but that's it. After he sustained the knee and back injuries in 2007, his defense has been a liability (aka AWFUL). I was *****ing about his defense back in 2007 and all the way through 2008 up until he was traded. Most people that actually watch him play without fanboy glasses on didn't need UZR to determine that Jason Bay's range had diminished drastically with those injuries in 07. Him and McLouth's below average range combined with Bay's noodle arm killed our contact pitching staff in 2008 more than their offense could help.

If it "****es" you off so bad... provide some statistical or concrete evidence that suggests that Jason Bay defensively is Average and don't give me fielding percentage either. Good FP is easy to achieve when you take the safest of all chances. Your feelings are going to be hurt when you see his defensive numbers since 2007 are AWFUL. It might just **** you off


Bay is 31 years old. He's past is prime and at the beginning of his decline years. That's not fiction, it's the reality of the sport that for some reason you have chosen to ignore. If you think that 31 is still being in your prime, you're clueless. Most analysts and experts consider 30 to be the start of the decline years for many. There's always exceptions.. Bay's 07 injuries + the additional injury last season + major decline in batting average + age of 31 = player on the decline. those decline years have hit. I don't even agree with Jnn that Bay is going to be worth much of a **** this year and next. I expect his power numbers to decrease without being protected and his Batting average to remain low. His defense in a large LF in New York is going to hurt those Mets pitchers... I wouldn't pay the guy $4 million per year right now.


... but you know what ****es me off? When people get all ****y when an opinion doesn't equal there's BUT NEVER offer up anything to back up their claims. When all someone can say is "nuh uh.. Bay doesn't suck defensively" it's like arguing with a 3rd grader. How about some presentation of some facts for a change to back ones self up? I'm tired of doing all of the **** work in these debates with certain people. If people are gonna be lazy, then don't get "****ed off" when you can't present factual evidence as to "why"

[jnn123]

I'm going to have to disagree with the title of this thread. I think Smizik hit an all time low around the time this picture was taken:



Thanks to Bucs Dugout for the amazing picture.

[buccoray61]

I'm going to have to disagree with the title of this thread. I think Smizik hit an all time low around the time this picture was taken:



Thanks to Bucs Dugout for the amazing picture.

Looks like Gabe Kaplan with glasses.

[GeoPittsburghFan]

the problem with Bay is exactly what Neal has outlined many times. He was older, and we didn't have control of him. Bay was ready to cash out big time and long term past his prime. Only an idiot would've NOT traded Bay and resigned him long term...

Problem with Bay is that we really didn't get much of anything out of that trade. all that remains with any semblance of potential is Andy LaRoche. Hansen is a long shot, Bryan Morris is a long shot, moss is a dud. ... but, every GM has misses, you just hope and want for your GM to have more hits than misses and we won't really know that regarding Huntington for a little while

I thought we got Olendorf (sp?) with the Bay trade, or was that the Nady trade?

[jnn123]

I thought we got Olendorf (sp?) with the Bay trade, or was that the Nady trade?

Nady trade. Nady and Marte for Tabata, Ohlendorf, Karstens, and D. McCutchen.

[GeoPittsburghFan]

Thanks. I couldn't remember were we got Ross.

[night9hawk]

I'm going to have to disagree with the title of this thread. I think Smizik hit an all time low around the time this picture was taken:



Thanks to Bucs Dugout for the amazing picture.

Wow, that picture brings back memories! Won't say what kind though...

[DCBILL]

I may be in a minority but I think Smizk has consistently blown holes in the PBC "bull**** campaign," whether the latter is statements by Nutting, Coonelly, Huntington, or Russell.

Not everyone in the Burg or those of us who were born to "Pirate baseball"--not the stuff we've seen for the past 217 years--are idiots. We can see the shortcomings of the baseball talent and the management.

There are a few Pittsburgh media who continually point that stuff out and Smizik has been one of them.

I hope he keeps it up and I hope Mario and Burkle keep up their end.

I believe it is just a matter of time befroe MLB sours on Nutting and forces him to consider "future career options," not owning the PBC.

[ranrod7]

I may be in a minority but I think Smizk has consistently blown holes in the PBC "bull**** campaign," whether the latter is statements by Nutting, Coonelly, Huntington, or Russell.

Not everyone in the Burg or those of us who were born to "Pirate baseball"--not the stuff we've seen for the past 217 years--are idiots. We can see the shortcomings of the baseball talent and the management.

There are a few Pittsburgh media who continually point that stuff out and Smizik has been one of them.

I hope he keeps it up and I hope Mario and Burkle keep up their end.

I believe it is just a matter of time befroe MLB sours on Nutting and forces him to consider "future career options," not owning the PBC.

As much as we are both gonna get killed here, DC, I am with you!

[indybucfan]

As much as we are both gonna get killed here, DC, I am with you!

You are both entitled to your opinion, but if you think MLB is going to step in and force a sale, you're delusional. This organization was so badly run into the ground, rebuilding the complete organization was the only option. I'd much rather go in this direction than signing all the retreads that are getting insane money they aren't worth. Jason Marquis 2 years 14 million? Ben Sheets 10 million after not pitching for over a year?

Very few players worth signing make it to free agency, because the team that has them signs them through their prime. The only exception are Scott Boras clients, and the ones of his that are worth signing (i.e. Holliday, Texeiera, and probably Alvarez once he's eligible) will be priced right out of range of the Pittsburgh, Milwaukee's and Cincinnati's of the world. That's just a fact of the economics.

When the Pirates lost Bonds, Bonilla, and Drabek and all the others to free agency, the biggest mistake they made was not offering them arbitration. They failed to get draft picks for players they had no chance of retaining and they didn't trade them because they were contending at the time. Let's hope they build something that can last this time.

[Kipper]

I'm going to have to disagree with the title of this thread. I think Smizik hit an all time low around the time this picture was taken:



Thanks to Bucs Dugout for the amazing picture.

WOW



Oh, how that is going into the upcoming avatars

[Kipper]

I may be in a minority but I think Smizk has consistently blown holes in the PBC "bull**** campaign," whether the latter is statements by Nutting, Coonelly, Huntington, or Russell.

Not everyone in the Burg or those of us who were born to "Pirate baseball"--not the stuff we've seen for the past 217 years--are idiots. We can see the shortcomings of the baseball talent and the management.

There are a few Pittsburgh media who continually point that stuff out and Smizik has been one of them.

I hope he keeps it up and I hope Mario and Burkle keep up their end.

I believe it is just a matter of time befroe MLB sours on Nutting and forces him to consider "future career options," not owning the PBC.

DC... brother... you are going to have top present some factual proof of Bob Smizik "blowing holes into the PBC Campaign" and I'm not even asking for an amount that would equal - "consistently" which would amount to a lot The only thing Bob Smizik has done consistently in his career is smeared crap on the definition of journalism, waste the Post-Gazettes money like he were Matt Morris and been the brunt of a ton of jokes by fans in Pittsburgh for a long time

The few media people in Pittsburgh are a joke. I mean giving guys like Smizik, Collier, Cook and Madden praise for "credibility" is like saying Dr.Seuss is a great poet Pittsburgh media guys are moron and not just because I don't agree with them regarding the pirates. I usually always disagree with them when they are writing awful articles and columns on the Pens and Steelers as well .

I hope Bob Smizik drops dead ... ok... I don't really mean that, just something that prohibits him from producing an opinion that can be translated into print His ****ty columns and blogs and half asses opinion gives Pittsburghers and Pittsburgh sports fans a bad name.... If you agree with bob Smizik then that means you think "booing" the opponent is bad and wrong and you don't do it

MLB is forcing Nutting to sell, they just approved him becoming "majority owner" in 2007 and that was after 11 years of the worst ownership and management regimes MLB might ever see - Kevin McClatchy + Cam Bonifay + Dave Littlefield. If that piece of **** owner/CEO and those 2 retard GM's didn't force MLB to step up.